What to do on being made redundant

I was just made redundant from my job of 15 months, along with 14 other people in the company. I was only person in my department that was made redundant.
This was my first time working in Germany -I have never experienced anything like this before.
The icing on the cake is that the person I had been asked to train for the past 2 months now has my job.

I am going to have to give up my beautiful immaculate wohnung and find something cheap and cheerful.
Is it hard to find a flat if you are on unemployment benefit?
Do landlords have anything against renting to people on this?

On Friday when they broke the news they asked me to sign something that they said was just an acknowledgement that I had received the envelope which they handed me.
In the envelope was a letter that began with: hiermit kundigen wir - aus betriebsbedingten Grunden - etc.
I had 20 holidays left and was told I must take them now.

My German is very poor. They said they would explain what it says on Monday.
Was I foolish to sign this without a lawyer or native German speaker present?

You've been working for a while. You should get some sort of redundancy payout from the company, and then you can go on employment benefits until you find a new job. The benefits are really good at the start, a decent percentage of your previous wage. I wouldn't worry too much. Just try to find another job.

Ok here goes.Did you get a redundancy offer.After 12 months of working in a place you are entitled.do you have a works council /( Betriebsrat ).If you do get them involved.Get a copy of whatever you have signed.Sorry but it was silly signing something that you did not fully understand.You have a 1 month or 2 month period before they can get rid of you.Do not go earlier as if you are entitled to Redundancy pay this will be added on to yopur unemploymwnt benefit.If you have been made redundant get down to the Agentur für Arbeit straight away.You have to register unemployed as soon as you know you will be without a job.DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE OUT OF A JOB.You will then get no unemployment benefits for 3 months.

Was/is your work permit tied to your job?

@Mik Dickinson
yep I picked up the redundancy offer today but I didn't sign it yet.
Betriebsrat? dunno what that is..do you know of one in Hamburg?
The paper I signed on Friday was an acknowledgment that I had received an envelope that contained a notification of redundancy.
That's all.

I registered at the Agentur fur Arbeite today.

I had 19 holidays left to take this year.
They are saying my contract ends on 30.09.08, and that I must take my holidays now, and not return to the office.
My friend who was also made redundant had only 5 holidays left, and they got the same deal.
I don't understand how that works..

The redundency offer is 1 months wage.
So, will I get paid for Sept, (the holiday pay) AND if I sign this form, the redundancy pay of 1 month?

@miwild - I'm an EU citizen so no work permit necessary.

oops forgot to say, danke Hutcho for your optimism!

From your TT profile:

Everyone wants to be Canadian...

My advice to you is: Dont sign it before you spoke to the Betriebsrat (if your company has one) or try to find a lawyer and ask him what to do.
I dont think they are allowed to lay you off just like this, especially not if your position still exists and another one who came after you gets the job!

Sound advice. Get a lawyer ASAP! I also suspect they simply cannot lay you off like this. There might be a touch of the 'taking advantage of naive foreigner' here. Employers can be brutal and downright devious about this kind of thing in Germany (speaking from experience). You stand to loose out big time financially if you don't get the right advice.
Again - get a lawyer - but don't tell your Betriebsrat representative unless you absolutely trust him/her - they can sometimes be rather too close to the management and may not have your best interests at heart. Good luck.

Keep in mind that you have to carry the costs yourself in the first instance ... regardless of the outcome

I strongly recommend further reading on Betriebsbedingte Kündigung and Kündigungsschutzklage (you only have three weeks to take your employer to court)

Get a lawyer as there are certain time limits involved.The general ruling is last in first out.Do not sign anything you do not understand fully.
If they are offerring redundancy pay then they have accepted liability.Get a lawyer ASAP.Something does not quite fit in here.

You don't go looking for a Betriebsrat in Hamburg - the important question is: does a Betriebsrat exist at your place of work?

The Betriebsrat is the elected office representative who mediates between the management and the employees. That's right isn't it HEM?

Thats a pretty good 1-line summary. Betriebsrat members are not necessarily members of a Trades Union (they can be but dont need to be). Depends on the profession.

From: Germany Guide: Working in Germany

Which brings us back to:


to which we have no answer so far.

The Betriebsrat is a works council.

re: Betriebsrat
Is this the same as an HR department? or is a union?
There was no human resources dept. in the company UNTIL this past month. Now we have 1 person who is HR.

Does anyone know of an organisation in Hamburg that offers free legal advice with regards to redundancy packages?

May I offer a seemingly obvious idea?

Upon being made redundant, get another job.

Good advice B.D.

Neither ... see explanations above

If you are a member of the Trades Union you get free legal advice from them.
The Betriebsrat usually knows a lot about the legal situation, too.

Which brings us back to post #17....

well I guess it takes SOME time to find out, come on - be patient!

When there are betriebsbedingte Kündigungen (because of restructuring, economic trouble), the company has to do a Sozialauswahl, i.e. from a pool of comparable employees, those that seem to be less in need of protection according to social criteria have to go first. So, if you have been working in the company for a short period, are not advanced in age and don't have dependents, any disabilities etc., basically the cards are stacked against you. The employer still has to consider the possibility of employing you elsewhere before making you redundant, though. It certainly wouldn't be okay to take on a new employee and shortly afterwards dismiss someone who has been doing the same job.

The redundancy package seems to be in accordance with the Kündigungsschutzgesetz which stipulates 1/2 monthly pay per year of employment.

One more important thing is to ask for a qualifiziertes Arbeitszeugnis now – and have it checked by someone who knows about German references. Employers have to write a benevolent Arbeitszeugnis. It should contain a detailled description of all your tasks and your performance. In the closing paragraph, the fact that you were dismissed purely for betriebsbedingte Gründe needs to be stated, and there should be a "wishing you well" sentence.

In quite a few cases, a dismissal protection suit does have good chances of success (only a lawyer can give you an opinion on that, but also cannot give any guarantees). This can lead to getting your job back or getting a better redundancy package deal – but in your case, I wonder if you would gain much in the latter case, because, as mentioned above, the lawyer fees are on you.

Best of luck for leaving this ugly experience behind you and finding a better job, Cat_B!

Thanks RainyDays - most helpful!

I'm dropping out of this thread now- best wishes to all and may this never happens to you. It's ugly.

Hey it would have been nice to give us some feedback regarding Betriebsrat etc?!
What are you going to do now???

hallo there's no Betriebsrat and I can't afford a lawyer.
The people at the Bundesagentur fur Arbeit say they are not allowed to speak English which means I have to bring a German speaker with me every time.

All I want to know is, if I sign the redundancy offer, how does this affect unemployment insurance? do I no longer qualify for it? no one I have asked seems to know the answer to this question...

If you sign the redundancy offer, you are basically accepting financial compensation as a 'sweetener' for voluntarily leaving your job, and are deemed to be leaving on your own accord. Accepting this means you forfeit 3 months unemployment money, as you left due to your own choice. You won't see a penny from the Arbeitsamt until at least 3 months after the official termination date of your contract.

If you don't sign, and you can't afford a lawyer, then they will probably fire you. You qualify for benefits the minute you are unemployed.
You need to know, will you be better off financially if they fire you, or if you go on your own accord and accept the pay off?

Employment law in Germany is seriously skewed in favour of the employee. I worked with many people who have been fired due to company problems and problems not of their own making, and they have gone straight to a lawyer. Lawyer threatens company with court - company knows they will more than likely loose the case - and coughs up often substantial cash. Beg, steal or borrow the money to get a lawyer, is all I can say!

This is where a Rechtschutzversicherung (with the appropriate cover) comes in useful - like any other insurance has to be signed up before the event.

You may be able to apply for Prozesskostenhilfe or Beratungshilfe. To find out you have to contact your local Amtsgericht.

YEp, tedffo is right - you will lose 3 months of Arbeitslosengeld if you sign the redundancy offer.

So, its a rather simple calculation which is more money for you. I wouldnt sign, if it is not significantly more!
And: You also have to pay taxes on the redundancy money, so you better take that into account...

Have to go through similar situation recently.
Here is what i learnt.
If you get at least three month of salary from the employer as redundancy compensation then you can go for it or else doesn't make sense(unless you have an alternate job already) since you would get arbeitlosgeld only after three months.
If you don't take the offer they have to do a 'sozial auswahl' in which they will compare the people in similar job grade/description as you do and come with certain social points for each of the person involved (roughly for each year of your age you have one point, if you are married add another 4-6 points, kids another 4-6 points for each, and no of years in company is 2x points of that , add all this and you have your social points).Like you mentioned if this guy you were training is new and has less social points than you they can't fire you.Other thing is this process is unnecessary for the employer and so you have strong point to negotiate(less than three months is a waste).Also this can borrow you time to find a new job and still be paid in full.Ask for relocation package or house rent to be paid for those three months when you can't get unemployment money.One more thing the helath insurence has completely to be borne by you as well so you pay almost double of what you pay today towards health insurence.someOne told me that the tax you pay for redundancy money is a bit less but can't confirm this.
hope this helps

May be it would be good to find out how long you are entitled for arbeitlosgeld, as may less than two years of paying into system (assuming you have only worked for this company in germany) may not entitle you for more than 6months of arbeitlosgeld which would be max 67% of you last salary.

Thank you kind people!
But I'm still not clear on this point:

Say I am eligible for 6 months Arbeitslosengeld, and I sign the redundancy offer (which is 1 months salary) this means I do not get Arbeitslosengeld for 3 months. Ok, clear!
After the 3 months, can I then go on Arbeitslosengeld for 6 months or do I now only qualify for 3 months??

Hey sorry you had to go through this atul799- hope it worked out well.

Just to close this thread- everything is sorted now.
I'd advise anyone in this situation to get a 4th 5th and 6th opinion before you do anything and don't assume any so called 'facts' people tell you on here actually apply to your specific situation. As it turns out, the grey area is huge!

I have a question to do with the Arbeitslosgeld. Does anyone know how it's taxed? If I take my salary that I get after tax right now and work out how much 60% of it is, is that how much cash I have coming in?

I've done all the registration stuff etc...I just forgot to ask about that.

Arbeitslosengeld itself is not being taxed. But it has to be declared in your tax form, as it influences the height of your tax rate (if you have other income).

Apologies if I am being a bit dim here, does that mean then I get 60% of my salary before tax? Then at the end of the year I guess I need to do a tax return and any necessary rebate/payment is worked out then?

It´s calculated somewhat like this:
60% of: your average monthly salary before taxes last year multiplied with 12, divided through 365, minus 21% for social contributions,
=your daily ALG

ALG calculator

Do you need to do your tax return? Not necessarily if your only income has been your salary and the Finanzamt didnt explicitly ask you to do one. But you might want to, if there is a chance that you could still get some "Lohnsteuer" back.

Whoa there if you are ever unemployed then do the tax return.If you are unemployed for 2 months then you will get 2/12 of the tax back you have paid.

I think a friend has the software for it so I guess I better do me a tax return. I'm not on arbeitslosgeld yet but I will be as off November by the looks of it.

Thanks for the advice!

This is a painful thread.
I happen to have been through a similar process but was better advised.
The first rule is when the employer wishes to get rid of you
DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING
unless you read and understand German perfectly AND it is something simple like you
are ONLY acknowledging receipt of a document.
It is not just naive Brits. who are victims of employers who want to deprive them of their rights,
two Germans were sacked and conned before me (to their great financial detriment).
This is how it works.
If you agree to go and sign on the dotted line you are deemed to have conspired with the employer
by the Agentur für Arbeit - no unemployment pay for 3 months!
The ruse employers use is to get you to sign an "Aufhebungsvertrag" - Dismissal contract.
(The contract will not necessarily have "Aufhebungsvertrag" at the top..)
One Friday lunch time I was pressurised into signing such a document. I said "Nein"
and contacted a lawyer. He laughed and said effectively that no-one should ever sign these
things. I then went off on holiday as planned, and was sacked (properly by recorded letter) on return.
I then received full unemployment pay straight away (remember to contact the Agentur für Arbeit quickly).
Due to my age I could have had my job back - decided not as the firm were **** artists and with a bit of fencing
with the firm's lawyers got a hefty pay off. Incidentally they are called DPS Engineering - neither a good nor ethical employer.
And these folk who say they cannot afford to use a lawyer - One hour of lawyer's time was worth at least EUR 6000 to me.

It's not strictly true that you should never sign anything. The difference is that you should never sign something saying that the agreement is bilateral. My letter said specifically that it was unilateral and therefore the arbeitsamt would accept it. The works council advised me that I would probably not get significantly more money if I sued so I signed. If you don't have a good works council then you should definitely get a lawyer though. Never a good position to be in but it's unfortunately not uncommon in my field.

Hi I just got made redundant today and had a very surreal experience being fired in German by people who knew damn well I couldn't understand it properly. I'm going back in with my wife who's German tomorrow to see HR and will probably be asked to sign something. I had a betriebsrat guy present and I signed a form saying I received the two documents they gave me. Judging from this thread I should go to a lawyer and the arbeitsamt immediately and before I go to see HR??? Definitely I should not sign anything unil the lawyers checked it. F*ck I'm confused now.

I'm sorry this happened to you. Did the notice come totally out of the blue? Apparently, there are lot of open questions on your side, due to the language barrier. So it's a good idea to be accompanied by your wife when you talk to HR. I would use the appointment to get as much information as possible, notably on what grounds the notice is based and the modalities, anything that isn't clear in the documents you received.

As others have pointed out before, don't sign anything prematurely. You have got a limit of 3 weeks to file a Kündigungsschutzklage, if you decide to do so; a lawyer will give you an evaluation of your chances of success. Try to get recommendations for a good specialist in labour law (Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht).

Independently of the question if and what action you might take against the notice, go to the Arbeitsagentur asap (there's an obligation to get registered as arbeitssuchend/arbeitslos as soon as the notice is received).

EDIT: What is needed for arbeitssuchend/arbeitslos melden.

Looks like the betriebsrat did a good job of negotiating and there's no point going to court so alles gut. Just got to get on with life now and to be honest I'm glad to out of there.

cheers

Best of luck!