Law regarding pedestrian crossings and jaywalking

I live in London most of the time and cross the road everywhere with impunity. I'm always milliseconds away from being splattered across the pavement by some psychotic London driver.

In Germany people seem to wait at the lights. Really wait. Even if no cars are around.

What's the legal position with crossing the road? Am I likely to be stopped by a policeman (if one is around there)? What's the maximum fine?

Don't worry, there isn't a fine and the subsonic bullet won't even hurt.

They pay the snipers a bounty you know.

Edit: Actually there is a fine, at wild guess probably in the 15 to 25 euro category.

1. You answered the question for yourself
2. It's Germany - rules rules rules
3. It is mostly for the kids. A lot of Germans will go ahead and cross if there are no kids around.

I have heard of little old ladies stopping you and sitting on you while someone calls the police Or at least that is what I read on another thread on TT. That being said, I am sure if you searched (little white box that says "search" top right corner ) you will find several thread on it.

I was in London last weekend and found myself waiting. Each time my friend would grab me by the arm and pull me acrosss the street. I have got quite used to waiting and prefer to do so now - especially when in London.

The fine is €5. Was speaking to a member of the local constabulary about it just t'other day. I'd be more afraid of the little old ladies giving me a bollocking than Herr Plod issuing a fine.

Was about to say that i believe Jaywalking has a fine here but Keydeck beat me to it.

Q ? Is walking against a red man jaywalking?

I guess I can live with a €5 fine. Do police actually enforce this or will they just ignore it (as in the UK)?

The Deckmaster is right, I just looked it up, paragraph 130, 5 spondulicks. Never heard of anyone actually having got one though. hardly worth the friend and helper getting his notebook out.

Is actually quite interesting how it is only some things that the Germans actually do for the "role model" for the kids. They will make them wait even if it is perfectly safe to cross, but I have noticed (EVERY time I fly) that as soon as the wheels hit the ground - off come the seat belts. Just doesnt make sense. But then again, there is the clapping upon landing...Germans are weird.

But I still love it here

I think that might be racism mate. We don't say red man anymore. Apparently it's Native American.

If i say i was talking about Scots on holiday would that be OK? or would that be hibernianist?

I thought the fine was €5 for jaywalking (which is not the same thing as crossing on red). If you do not have a driver's license that is how much crossing on red can cost you.
BUT
If you do have one, the penalty can be the same as when you run a red light in a car!!! (I.e. DL can be taken away!) - This may only be the case if something (an accident) happens.
If you ride your bike drunk the penalty can also be the same as if you were drunk driving!
Of course this will not always happen but it can! So please be aware of it. (I do cross on red all the time when there are no cars though. Oops.)

that is First Nations in Canada (just to be totally politically correct here)

I got a tongue lashing from a women as I crossed on a red with no cars around, seems she felt I was setting a bad example for her kids, I turned in on her an told her 'its not my job to raise her children, its her job to tell them what I did was wrong' kind of confused her, but I am good at that.

Yeah it is not your job to raise them, but kids are very easily influenced by their surroundings, and I do think the society in general has the duty to be a good example. (I do try not to cross on red when there are kids around.)

I only do that when I am with friends and their kids, strangers are not my issue.

If you have a driving license you can theoretically be fined the same way as if you where doing it by car (i.e. get "points", large fines). Both as a pedestrian and on a bike. I have often heard of (and seen) police stopping people and informing them about that. But I don't know of anyone that actually had to pay a fine.

In Germany or in the USA?

Germany, that is how it is here from what I remember. (See my other post.)

Role model for the kids my *rse!

I suppose both parents smoking at a cafe table with children with them which I see germans doing everywhere here is also a role model for the kids!

Weird indeed.

I once saw a sting setup in the Englisher Garden for bicycles going through the red light. The police were cleaning up left and right as folks went right through the light (its a pretty long one and usually there is very little traffic). They once even chased a guy down to write him up a ticket for riding through a red.

If the man is red, it is not 'perfectly safe to cross'. Period. End of story.

If a car hits you while the red man is up and you're crossing the road and there is damage to his car, you better make sure you have some personal insurance 'cos he's going to want compensation.

It can even happen if you're crossing at green... if you're not crossing in the approved manner. Someone I know attempted to ride across a crossing on his bike when it was at green. He was hit by a car zooming round corner. Bike written off. Cyclist injured. Car scratched. Car driver took cyclist to court for damages ... and won. Why? Although the cyclist was allowed to ride along a cycle path on the pavement, he should have pushed his bike across the pedestrian crossing.

I remember reading something that said that the driver still had part of the damages because "he should have anticipated that someone one still break the law and cross the road anyway".

It's a bit like being pulled over for doing 70mph on the right-hand lane in the UK for causing an obstruction - if you go faster, it's illegal. If you don't go faster, you're an obstruction to people you _do_ drive (illegally) faster and therefore could cause an accident.

Another thought: does anyone know why the pedestrian lights in NRW have TWO red men on them?

And if the man is green, it's still not perfectly safe to cross because there are still vehicles crossing your path. I would be a little more tolerant of this petty little rule if, when the pedestrian light eventually turned green, it was a dedicated light for pedestrians. But it's not, because the light will also be green for cars turning right into your path. I'd rather cross on red when there are no cars coming than cross on green when there's an HGV turning into my path.

I think exactly this kind of view is what contributes to some of the problems in today's society.

Yes, I always thought it strange that the pedestrian crossing signs are not dedicated, meaning that the pedestrians get the green and no one else (ie cars) has the green light. It would certainly reduce the number of pedestrian/car and cyclist/car and car/car collisions at all these intersections.

rant
Indeed. And I'd just like to point out that we Alpha Centaurians find the term "Green Man" racist and discriminatory. And no, we do not like to be called "aliens". Or "Green tea guzzlers". And anyway, what's with this "green Man, red Man? Quite apart from being humanocentric, that is also blatantly sexist.
/rant

Oh, and did anyone ever find out the answer to this intriguing question? -

I've also wondered this. I'm not, however, sure that you are allowed to cross wherever you want, at least on busy roads. I suspect there's a law somewhere saying that you can only cross at designated points, and of course then only when the little man is on green.

Another question is why Germany doesn't have more zebra crossings.

huh? why? Sorry, I don't live up to your standards, will try harder tomorrow for you then.

A rant from a very long time ago...

And 'man' refers to hu'man', just as it always has.

From what I've been told, and have read the Fußgängerüberweg is for your protection. A crossing where you have rights if a car decides to hit you. If you decide to cross outside the zone then you lose the legal protection,and quite possibly worse...your life. It's like walking down the street. If you walk on the left side you have some legal protection...not much but some...however walking on the right means you are on your own.

Indeed - like I said - totally humanocentric, no consideration for other galactic life forms. I even suspect a conspiracy to eliminate them. How many extraterrestrials with bright red skin do you see walking around in these parts? Not many, eh? And why not? Because they've all been run over crossing the road when they see the red man person symbol. Us green people will be next. I was nearly killed once crossing on a green light at a blind corner when a lunatic driver came round at full speed. And there are the drivers who, even though they see you crossing, keep going at full speed and then brake just at the last minute. And the ones who keep advancing slowly until they're practically nudging you out of the way. Life is getting tough for the little green galactic citizens.

Because why no car would stop. Even worse in Switzerland...

Hmmm, we do have zebra crossings in my town, quite a few actually, and the cars do stop (at least 90% of the time).

Yes, at the zebra crossings I've seen, I would say German's are much more likely to stop than Brits. On the other hand, they're also much more likely to try and run you over if you're not crossing at an approved place.

Happened to a friend of mine, he was cycling up leopoldstrasse (on the bike path) but unfortunately 3x over the limit. Lost his licence and had to sit the MPU to get it back. Funny thing was, he took his bike purposely to avoid having to drink and drive. Doh!

As long as your foot touched the pavement while the light was green you are allowed to walk all the way through to the other side or the next aisle for larger crossings.
What we learn here as kids is that we NEVER EVER turn back when crossing the streets because it is actually more dangerous than anything. You might want to avoid stepping on the pavement at the last second (for instance if the light has been red for a while) when traffic is busy or you find yourself at larger intersections.
Actually I feel stupid now for descending into "explain it to the 5 year old" tone with the last bit. But I wont edit it since I have to punish myself for posting stupid.

I should think you do, considering you completely failed to answer his question! Try reading it again.

Now thats the next level of stupid. Thanks for the heads up...

If you are worried about the police, there is no safe distance from the crossing that is aceptabel to them. If they want to fine you, they will fine you, as long as there is a pedestrian crossing in sight that you could have taken.
If they don't want to in the first place, you'll most likely get by by emphasizing that you paid close attention to traffic and that your wife's in labor.

And news in today's TZ that two cyclists have been killed this week in Munich as a result of crossing into the path of an HGV, where both parties had a green light. The problem with Germans robotically waiting for the man to turn green is that they fail to gain any road sense. Therefore, when the light is green, people just cross the road without considering what else is going on around them. Common sense tells me not to cross into the path of an oncoming vehicle unless I'm certain that the driver has seen me. But to a German pedestrian or cyclist, all that matters is that they have the legal right of way. They fail to consider factors such as a driver's blind spot, or distractions caused by mobile phones, tiredness or simple incompetence.

As I mentioned above, I think this strictness regarding jaywalking is ludicrous given that, when the pedestrian light finally turns green, it's also green for vehicles crossing into the path of the pedestrians and cyclists. It is inevitable that people will die as a result of this, but apparently speeding up the traffic light sequence is a more important priority than providing cyclists and pedestrians with a safe crossing.

TZ: Rechnet mit den Fehlern der anderen!

"Sure it will save a few LIVES, but MILLIONS will be LATE!"
--Homer Simpson

Homer is a typical Briton:
Great Britain has the third worst rate of pedestrian fatalities on roads out of 10 European countries studied in the latest EuroTest report into pedestrian crossings, released by the AA today.
On pedestrian crossings, this international comparison shows a different result for Norway, which has the highest rate of fatalities with a ratio of 3.7, followed by Italy (3.4) and Switzerland (3.0). At the opposite, we can once again stress the excellent situation in the Netherlands (0.6), followed by Germany (0.8) and Great Britain (1.2). So, from a statistical point of view, the fatalities ratio on pedestrian crossings is 6 times higher in Norway than in the Netherlands.

GB 50% higher than Germany

http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/news/a...ope-survey.html

50% higher. Wow. Nothing like selective quoting, eh?


So in Germany there is in total 0.1 pedestrian fatality per year per million population less, and whilst you're a little less likely to be killed on a crossing, you're rather more likely to be killed not on a crossing.

Possibly because the Germans never learn the green cross code and so if there is no crossing they don't know what to do?

I like statistics. You can lie with the numbers you show, but also with the numbers you don't show.

Here is the some number of pedestrians killed in Germany 2007: 695
https://www-ec.destatis.de/csp/shop/sfg/bpm...&ID=1022390

The British number 2006: 676
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datat...mainresults2006

Germany has 82000000 inhabitants, UK 61000000

Why are so few cyclists killed in the UK?
UK 145
Germany 425

probably fewer total cycle miles. Without any figures, my instinct would be that probably the deaths per cycled mile would be higher in the UK than in Germany, but obviously straight numbers (or numbers per head of population) don't take account of the relative numbers of cyclists (or cycled miles) in the two countries.

This comparison between Germany and Britain seems irrelevant to me. I'm delighted that Germany has a lower rate of pedestrian deaths than some other countries, but this is hardly cause for complacency. Everything possible should be done to reduce the accident rate even further, and ending this bizarre system where vehicles have a green light to turn into the path of cyclists and pedestrians seems to me to be an obvious choice.



(Who would build such a street? They would be declared insane. Yet this system of traffic control is applied for cycle paths – which are then claimed to be safe.)

I think this effort should be saved to prevent accidents that are not almost already 100% preventable with basic awareness of your surroundings.

I agree with that last statement. I almost hit a lady last week in Feldmoching. I was taking a right onto a major street and she was riding along on my right and about to cross this next street. BUT - this woman had a red light already and I had a green. AND she didn't look like she was going to stop AND, gues what? She didn't stop. She road straight through the red light and I took a right turn (I did, of course, stop so as to not hit her) but I was pissed. She didn't even look and was completely unaware. I almost followed her and ripped her a new one but instead she got a long, loud honk and a 'you stupid bitch' from me.

It's educating the pedestrians along with this stupid system.

That might be the reason why so many cyclists are killed in Germany.

You should think about the ToL way to reduce accidents like that.